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Safe Spaces with Erin Gee

Erin Gee is a policymaker, specialist in gender-based analysis, and Co-Founder of the Bad + Bitchy Podcast, and this week she discusses safe spaces with Elizabeth. Safe Spaces are online or physical spaces where historically marginalized groups might connect, share information and ideas, and mobilize. How does the idea of safe spaces connect to media and digital literacy? We consume information in social contexts, safe spaces can be one of those contexts. Erin and Elizabeth cover types of safe spaces, critiques of safe spaces, free speech, equity, and intersectionality.

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Episode Transcript: Safe Spaces with Erin Gee

Read the transcript below or download a copy in the language of your choice:

Elizabeth: [00:00:04] Welcome to Wonks and War Rooms, where pol[itical] comm[unication] theory meets on the ground strategy. I'm your host, Elizabeth Dubois, I'm an associate professor at the University of Ottawa and my pronouns are she/her. Today I'm recording from the unceded and traditional territory of the Algonquin people.

[00:00:17] Today, we're talking about safe spaces with Erin Gee. All right, I wanted to take a minute before we get into this episode just to talk about why safe spaces really matter in the larger context of digital and media literacy (which is our main focus for this season). Safe spaces helps us understand, in part, the way that social context impacts the way we incorporate new ideas into our political decision making and how we critique and assess different kinds of ideas that show up on our screens or in our ears. When we're thinking about how political information flows—which is pretty core to understanding media and digital literacy—we need to be thinking about the social circumstances in which we are sharing and receiving that information. And so, safe spaces comes into play because it helps us describe some of the context in which political information sharing might be happening. And with that, I'll hand it over to Erin to introduce herself.

Erin: [00:01:18] My name is Erin Gee, and my pronouns are she/her, and like you, I'm joining today from the unceded territory of the Anishinaabe and Algonquin peoples. I grew up out west on the unceded territory of the Coast Salish. I am a podcaster and a co-host and co-founder of the Bad + Bitchy podcast, which discusses politics and pop culture from an intersectional feminist lens. I'm also a policymaker and a specialist in gender-based analysis. I'm really interested in urbanism and people, and the underpinning of everything I've done in my life, whether it's event organizing, charity work, etc., is the desire to make the world suck less.

Elizabeth: [00:02:13] Amazing, making the world suck less is a pretty valiant goal. I'm so excited to have you here, too. We're going to talk about safe spaces, which I know is something that you've heard of before, but as you know, in Wonks and War Rooms, we take this theoretical idea that scholars come up with and then think about, "OK, well, what does that mean out in practice?" So let's start off. I'm going to give you my definition of safe space, and we're going to see if that fits with your understanding.

Erin: [00:02:44] Great.

Elizabeth: [00:02:44] All right. So, this idea of safe spaces comes from feminist theory, and it describes spaces where historically marginalized groups can come together and they can find strength and community, and they can negotiate differences and challenge oppression. They're spaces where [these historically marginalized groups] are free from threats that they might experience otherwise; so, free of oppression and harassment and potentially physical harm. These spaces, they can exist both offline and online, and they can be thought of as either separate, distinct spaces that are created to be safe spaces, or they might be instances of groups taking back otherwise threatening spaces. So there I think of examples like Take Back the Night or even Pride marches, which can create these temporary, safe spaces in spots that otherwise might have been threatening.

[00:03:36] So obviously, there's a ton to dig into when we're talking about what constitutes safe space, who's involved, what the roles of these spaces are, but, before we dive into all of that, I just wanted to check in with you: does this explanation resonate? Does this make sense?

Erin: [00:03:51] Yeah, I think it does. In my work (I work in an office) I have also used the concept of a safe space to help facilitate discussions around difficult issues so that it doesn't get contentious and lead to a harassment complaint. But yeah, I think the history there is spot on and the raison d'etre of why they came into existence is absolutely accurate. And I think that, given the increased polarization and the rhetoric online, we're seeing an increased need for these types of spaces.

Elizabeth: [00:04:34] Yeah, so let's dive into that. Why do we need these spaces? What service are they providing? Are they providing service? Who's benefiting from them?

Erin: [00:04:46] Yeah, so I think... I don't know that I necessarily would have referred to it at the time when I was in university as a "safe space", but of course, there's always been an LGBTQ hub in universities, and of course, those are safe spaces for queer people to connect, make connections, and feel as though they can just be themselves. And I think really, that's why safe spaces came to be. I think that now, yes, we can create communities online, but being able to create those communities at a young age—or an impressionable age when you're in college—to find people who have 1) similar values and 2) similar experiences to you is really important. We have student unions, right? We have student unions for people of a particular degree to meet people who are going through the same sort of academic experiences as you. So why not have a space where someone [of] the same sexuality, gender, skin colour as you, Indigenous spaces for Indigenous peoples—why not have spaces for them too, so that they can also share that type of experience with other people who are experiencing the same thing as them?

[00:06:07] It's interesting to see the idea of a safe space go from a very, I don't want to say "closed", but very specific type of environment of a university into a more adult world and kind of mature and try to figure out what that means. And I think that we're still trying to figure out what that looks like and what that means for everyone.

Elizabeth: [00:06:27] Yeah, I think that's a really good point. In academic literature, there's actually roughly two kinds of camps that started talking about safe spaces when the research kicked off. One was the activist lens looking at safe spaces as places to challenge the dominant power, to develop the connection you need to be able to go out and make the world better for people who are marginalized in whatever group that you're connected with. And then there was this other bit that was looking at like the pedagogical value of safe spaces and this idea of creating spaces like on campuses, as you've talked about. And those two goals feel kind of different to me—like when we think of the actual core idea of what constitutes a safe space and why we need them, that feels pretty different to me. I wonder if you see that same kind of divide where there's the safe spaces that are created in order to create political change and then the safe spaces that are created in order to create a sense of community and belonging.

Erin: [00:07:34] I think it's a Venn diagram, right? Because you can't really have one without the other, because...

Elizabeth: [00:07:38] Yeah.

Erin: [00:07:39] ...the spaces for Black people or Queer people or Indigenous people, those are radical spaces. And "radicalism", I guess (quote unquote), is something that is political. Like...

Elizabeth: [00:07:56] Mm hmm.

Erin: [00:07:57] ... Black joy, Black existence is political. And so I think they can exist in isolation, but there definitely is an overlap. And I think that overlap is both increasing and becoming blurrier, depending on your view of safe spaces.

Elizabeth: [00:08:19] Oh, interesting, so it's increasing and becoming blurrier. In what ways do you think it's becoming blurrier?

Erin: [00:08:25] I think that if you view safe spaces as kind of anti-free speech, then you don't necessarily view them as... I think you inherently view them as political rather than a place for community.

Elizabeth: [00:08:41] Yeah, yeah, that definitely tracks with what is in the literature. There's this tension between the idea of a safe space and free speech, and there's those people who argue the best way to deal with hate speech online, for example, is just to have more speech. [Note: This article demonstrates the type of arguments that may be used against safe spaces.] Because the more speech there is, the more you're going to hear people who don't have that hateful view and [so that hateful speech is] going to get drowned out. Which, [if] you look at the stats, actually, that's not entirely true, unfortunately.

Erin: [00:09:11] Kind of exactly what Facebook believes, right?

Elizabeth: [00:09:14] Mm hmm.

Erin: [00:09:15] That's literally what Facebook tries to do. They are like, "Oh, we don't want to 'stifle' speech or reduce hate speech, we want to allow that to exist while also trying to bump up all of this less hateful rhetoric." Which doesn't really work.

Elizabeth: [00:09:35] Yeah, it doesn't work for so many different reasons. Maybe let's pick apart some of those reasons. So if we are on the [train of belief that], "Okay, free speech is going to solve the problem," even at that level (before we get into what Facebook will or won't do) there's this idea that free speech is actually free and open to everyone, and equally accessible, and everyone's going to get equally heard—even before we deal with the algorithms that absolutely do influence how much we get heard, right? Like, there's no such thing as a structuralist group; we're always going to be ordered in some way because social norms are super, super powerful.

Erin: [00:10:18] Exactly, and it's the same thing as any sort of policy that doesn't consider that not everyone starting from the same vantage point, right? That's why there's a graphic online that talks about equity and there's a father, an older child, and a young child, and they're all looking over a fence at a tree and they're like, "OK, this is the world." The youngest child can't see anything, the older child also sees nothing but is very close to the top of the fence, and the father can see the tree. So equality is then giving them all a box to stand on—and, you know, yes, the older child can see over top of the fence [now], but the father is way above, [and] the younger child still can't see anything. And then when you get into an issue of equity, which is making sure that everyone has the same view, it's giving the older child one box and the younger child two boxes so that they can all see the tree and the beautiful view. [Note: This graphic has been reproduced in many forms. See “The Evolution of an Accidental Meme” on Medium.]

Elizabeth: [00:11:19] Right.

Erin: [00:11:19] I think, yes, safe spaces or the idea of free speech fails to acknowledge that we all don't have the same privilege to say whatever we want.

Elizabeth: [00:11:32] Yeah, and when it comes to the internet, there was this early cyber-libertarian ideal that, like, "Oh, we're getting to start fresh! We don't have to deal with the same fence that we had before and everybody's just going to be able to stand and see and it'll be perfect." And obviously that has not happened. We've seen a replication of all of this sexist and racist and discriminatory stuff in our society, just online—because people are using tools and people exist in society.

[00:12:04] So if we know that even these online spaces aren't going to just be that perfect, even playing field, free speech kind of world, how is it that safe spaces correct that or contribute to dealing with that inequity?

Erin: [00:12:21] I guess it depends on whether you're viewing safe spaces as a physical space or a political [space]. I think that, from a political perspective, it probably corrects that [inequity] a little bit more because it is providing people with an opportunity to advocate for themselves and the causes they support without fear of verbal or physical harassment. Whereas in an enclosed physical space, [a space space] is more like a place where you can disconnect and recharge and take care of your mental health.

Elizabeth: [00:13:09] Yeah, that's interesting. I definitely see those two different kinds of things that safe spaces can offer. I haven't often thought of them as distinct because of 'political versus physical space' or 'online versus offline', but I do sort of see where you're coming from. I think maybe you could get each of those things, whether it's physical space or not. It depends on the social structures around that space and who, or what, is responsible for creating the bounds of that space.

Erin: [00:13:40] Yes. Absolutely. I think that, particularly in a political movement, within that movement itself... I've been involved in organizing and activism where it's in theory been a safe space. But then, once you go outside the confines of that group into public, you have to then become more aware that you are outside the safety of that enclosed group.

Elizabeth: [00:14:07] Right. And so, what does that awareness mean? In your experience, what changes between when you're in that group and that safe space versus when you're out of it?

Erin: [00:14:18] I think that when you're within the group itself, you're able to call each other out and be like, "That was inappropriate," or, "That's not the type of language that we value, and so here's how we're going to address that." It's more of an internal management exercise than [it is when you're] outside [the group itself, which is] where you have to be like, "OK, this is my team. We believe the same things. I'm going to stand up for these people even though we may have personal differences because we're fighting something bigger than us and looking to make change for a wider swath of people."

Elizabeth: [00:14:56] Yeah, that makes sense. When you were talking about the kinds of conversations [you have within that group], and calling each other out, and correcting language, and figuring that out—that all speaks to this idea of negotiation within this space. [Negotiation is] where you create a space where, by being there, you have this sense of belonging, the sense of community, this sense of connection. So you don't have to worry about fully being ostracized from the group, which is a social fear that prevents a lot of people from expressing their ideas and their opinions. And so, when you no longer have to be worried about being completely shunned, then you can engage in this negotiation process which helps you unpack these really tricky problems which need to be discussed if they're going to be dealt with.

Erin: [00:15:40] Yeah, and I think that one thing that isn't really talked about—I mean, the internet's a bad place for this, but—in general, among like friends, colleagues, even activist spaces, is that your willingness to become an activist and go into an organizing space with strangers (but people who generally hold the same values as you) [brings with it] a level of vulnerability because you're going into a place where you're saying, "OK, I'm willing to be corrected. I'm willing to be told that this view of mine, or this thing that I'm used to saying, is not welcome in this area." Or that, "I haven't quite pushed myself far enough to where everyone else is." And I think that people are scared to let go of their ego and their willingness to be corrected. And I think that that is definitely undervalued and something that I have definitely learned and I'm still learning.

Elizabeth: [00:16:58] Mm hmm.

Erin: [00:16:58] I don't like being wrong, I love being right. I'm a Capricorn and I love being right! [Laughs] But, sometimes a piece of humble pie is what people need.

Elizabeth: [00:17:09] Mm hmm, yeah totally. That just resonates with me so well because it can be really scary going into these spaces where you know that there are rules to follow—you know that this is a curated space because it is designed very specifically to be welcoming of people who are not necessarily welcomed into wider spaces because of whatever the dominant class is. So, it's hard to get in that space and [easy to] be like, "I don't want to say anything wrong. I'm scared." But when a space is safe enough, you can kind of release that fear and be much more vulnerable to just being like, "I'm here to learn. I've got to figure it out. I don't know yet. I... Please teach me."

Erin: [00:17:54] Yes, absolutely. And I think there's a risk that, particularly as a white person coming into these spaces, you can be like, "Oh, I'm relying on all of these racialized and vulnerable people from vulnerable populations to educate me," which is, like I said, a slippery slope. But I think that going in there with good intentions, and allowing marginalized and racialized communities to lead the way, and ced[ing] the floor is the important part there.

Elizabeth: [00:18:25] Yeah that, I think, makes a lot of sense and starts to speak to who's allowed into these spaces and who isn't. And sometimes safe spaces are meant to be places that are for this very specific marginalized group that that space is aiming to to support and bolster, and sometimes safe spaces are created for that group but then also to educate others who are there as allies and wanting to contribute. I think it's important to recognize that just because it's a safe space doesn't make it for you, right? It depends on what that space is meant to be doing and who's there.

Erin: [00:19:06] Absolutely, and I think that again goes back to the idea that there are two separate [kinds of safe spaces]. Like on campus, probably the queer space [there is] probably only for queer people. Whereas if you're organizing for Pride or helping organize the parade or [are] involved with that, then yeah, absolutely, non-queer people can participate. But again [when allies are participating in those queer spaces], you still want to lift up and provide the opportunities for people in the queer community.

Elizabeth: [00:19:38] Totally.

[00:19:39] This all makes me think about one of the main critiques of safe spaces, which is: they can be extremely exclusionary, and somebody is getting to decide how they are exclusionary—which itself can inadvertently reproduce problematic things. So, we could think about [how] a lot of the safe spaces around dealing with violence against women have been critiqued for being very white spaces and exclusionary towards people who are not white, middle or upper class. And so, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about the ways in which safe spaces are sometimes exclusionary, and is that a problem? Does something need to be done? That kind of thing.

Erin: [00:20:25] Yeah. This is something that we talk a lot about on the podcast, the idea of intersectionality. And I talk about it with friends, too. And you know, there's this trope that my friends and I have of the well-meaning white woman and [how] they want so badly to demonstrate that they are "woke" and "progressive" and all these things—and that's not to say that they're not, but they just don't know how to let go...

Elizabeth: [00:20:58] Mm hmm.

Erin: [00:21:00] ... I think the idea of spaces for survivors of sexual violence (or whatever [other kinds of safe spaces]), they can be very white. And I think there's the mistaken view of, "Well, this space is for everyone, so if they choose not to come, then that's on them and it's not on us." [However,] I think that there has to be some deliberate outreach to make sure that those racialized or other communities know that this actually is a safe space for them and that they will be given positions of power and influence. Because, in order for a space like that to become truly inclusive, you have to build the bridges. You have to put the time in to create those relationships and the trust so that everyone can work together to achieve the desired outcome.

Elizabeth: [00:22:02] I think that intentionality that you're pointing to is so crucial. It's not that you just say a space is a safe space and all of a sudden it is. It takes organization and continued effort to create a space that is inviting to whichever populations you're hoping it's going to be inviting to, and to make sure that people's voices are heard and amplified, and, when they're not being heard, that somebody is trying to to correct that and change that.

Erin: [00:22:33] Yeah, I think that there is a mistaken belief among people that... So today [it] is [like] there is a Major League Baseball game taking place in a cornfield in Iowa, very much à la Field of Dreams. There's the quote in the movie that says, "If you build it, they will come," and I think that that's a very mistaken belief of people who build things. They're like, "Oh, well I built this thing, therefore people are going to want to do it, or use it, or whatever, because I think it's important and I think it has value." When [in reality,] you have to demonstrate why people should participate and why they will want to participate.

Elizabeth: [00:23:12] Yeah, and it's so interesting because that exact idea flows through so much of political communication strategy. You can never just assume that people are going to show up because you said a thing or created a thing. You have to demonstrate value and you have to continue to engage if you want anyone to show up.

Erin: [00:23:33] Yeah—yeah, it's a simple question of, "Who is this for and how do I communicate to them?" That's all you need to do.

Elizabeth: [00:23:40] Right.

Erin: [00:23:41] That [doesn't seem] hard, but apparently it's. [Laughs]

Elizabeth: [00:23:44] {Laughs] Yeah, I mean, it is a little easier said than done; there [are] a few more challenges in there, but... [Laughter]

[00:23:49] So, when you're thinking about safe spaces, have you thought about this idea of separate spaces versus taking back threatening spaces?

Erin: [00:24:03] Um, I don't think in that very much explicit way, but yeah, kind of. Yeah, I think the framing is a little... Something that I hadn't really thought about. But yeah, there's always something going on up here.

Elizabeth: [00:24:16] Yeah, it's something that I hadn't really been thinking about because my first introduction into safe spaces was actually when everyone was starting to talk about creating a safe space and not really basing it in any of this theory that I later read up about. And so, for me, the idea of taking back threatening spaces, even if temporarily, was really interesting because we use the word "space" and think of something that is permanent and physical, and taking back threatening spaces isn't permanent even if it is maybe physical. Like, showing up to a place that you, on your own, would not be safe [in], but because you're there with a big group of people, that's what makes it safe. I think that's really interesting and sort of challenges the way that safe spaces have been talked about in public discourse recently.

Erin: [00:25:14] Yeah, I wonder.... My immediate example I think about is when you break up with someone and you go back to you guys' favourite restaurant and you're like, "Oh, there's so many memories here. Like, urgghhh!" But then, when you go back with friends, it doesn't even cross your mind because you're too present in the moment and having a good time with them. So I think that's really interesting and I wonder... This is probably true for people who have experienced a trauma, right? Like, yes, it's one thing to be like, "Oh, this type of space is typically been hostile to me," but when you've experienced a trauma that's very triggering for people, so knowing that you're in that community of people who will protect you and who can maybe relate to what you're experiencing definitely makes sense to me.

Elizabeth: [00:26:12] Yeah, and those are really helpful illustrations, thank you. That's really great.

[00:26:16] I'm wondering if there's anything, when you hear people talking about safe spaces, that you're just like, "Oh my gosh, you don't get it"? Are there things that you hear repeatedly where people are just using the idea wrong or misunderstanding it or...?

Erin: [00:26:34] I think the biggest thing, and we kind of alluded to this a bit, is the idea that [safe spaces] are against free speech. And I think that the phrase free speech is thrown around a lot when people just want to say whatever derogatory thing or hate speech that they want. And the fact of the matter is that speech evolves and has evolved throughout history, and so why should, in a specific person's lifetime, that be any different? That's literally how humans have come to exist, through evolution. [Laughs]

Elizabeth: [00:27:11] Right, yep.

Erin: [00:27:14] So yeah, I think that's a really big one, particularly when you're trying to do something in an event space. So I mentioned that I've done some work at my job where we're going to be having what I could potentially see [as] a difficult discussion. So I created some principles; I was like, "Here are the things that people are going to need to agree to. And if you don't agree to them, then you can log off the call and not participate." But it needs to be like, "These are the things that we have to just agree to as baseline in order to make sure that this doesn't spiral out of control." Thankfully, everyone agreed, but yeah, I think that the free speech thing is really the biggest issue.

Elizabeth: [00:28:05] Yeah. It always, for me, goes back to this idea of free speech—at least in a specific democratic context. Free speech in a democracy is not actually like free reign, free speech, whatever you want. Free speech is balanced against freedom to not be hated on, right? Like, hate speech is not allowed. And there are other kinds of speech that we say are off the table, [too]. And so setting those rules out... obviously there is a certain extent to which law, government, [and] law enforcement put those on the table and they're responsible for dealing with it, but individually we get to decide some of those things too. And so your example of creating that list for a meeting that you know is going to be tough is a really useful tool for creating an environment where people feel like they can express their ideas, ask questions, engage, and try and negotiate through these difficult problems.

[00:29:06] I've also heard of people talking about using trigger warnings—and I think the whole idea of trigger warning also became super popular in public discourse and like, maybe isn't always used exactly right. But, that idea of, "I'm about to say something that might create some emotional response, might create a reaction, might remind you of past trauma... Know that this is about to happen. And [know that] I'm not trying to hurt you with it, but it also needs to be said."

Erin: [00:29:35] Yeah, I think the whole idea of trigger warnings is just... Obviously they one hundred percent have value, but yeah, the internet takes a good thing and can ruin it really quickly. [Laughs]

Elizabeth: [00:29:47] Classic Internet. [Laughs]

Erin: [00:29:51] Yeah, so I think that people who talk about free speech and really want to hold it as a major value really don't understand what free speech is and how it actually is enshrined in the Criminal Code.

Elizabeth: [00:30:10] Hmm.

Erin: [00:30:10] They view it as a value and not as a law and a governing principle.

Elizabeth: [00:30:18] Right. And so, what do we do then if we've got parts of society that are like, "Free speech [is a] value and it is core to my beliefs and who I am," and then on the other side we've got the group that get called social justice warrior who are like, "I'm here to create these spaces and I'm going to enforce these rules around how to talk and how to be"? Those two extremes—which are both caricatures, obviously—what do we do, then? How do we interact?

Erin: [00:30:53] I mean... In short, we don't know. [Laughs] But all jokes aside, I think that depending on your relationship with those people, it can be as simple as saying, "OK, yeah, I understand that that's something that's important to you, but I also want to ask why you think that you deserve, or should be able to, say those things." Get them to kind of interrogate themselves because I can say fairly confidently that they're going to be like, "Oh, well, I don't want to," and that there's a lack of intellectual curiosity within themselves [and] why they believe what they believe.

Elizabeth: [00:31:37] Mm hmm, yeah. And I would say those kinds of conversations are a lot easier to have with people that you have a preexisting social relationship with. Sometimes they are easier in person or when there's video feedback. We've seen online safe spaces that get overrun by people who maybe weren't invited into that space [but] end up there [anyways], and then there's the full flame wars that happen, which doesn't doesn't really serve anyone particularly well. But those are definitely symptoms of how difficult those kinds of conversations can be.

Erin: [00:32:15] Mm hmm. Absolutely, and I think that Twitter's option to limit who can respond to your tweets is beneficial for reducing a lot of the negative responses to a potentially inflammatory subject. Same with on Instagram. But I think that, yeah, there's a lot of people who are happy to slide into people's DMs and just harass them—and it can be simple to not look at them and delete them, but when it's someone who you know as an acquaintance and have some sort of preexisting relationship with, they can get a lot more challenging for sure. But again, this is, I guess, why we have receipts now. You can be like, "Oh, you said this, [then] I asked why you felt the need to use this language, and [then] you told me to F--- off." Well, now I have this [receipt], and like... Sorry?

Elizabeth: [00:33:16] It's like, well, it's all written down, so... Yeah.

Erin: [00:33:19] Let's keep a receipts folder on your phone. [Laughs]

Elizabeth: [00:33:23] [Laughs] Hot political tips, right there! Good strategies. Amazing.

Elizabeth: [00:33:28] There's multiple other podcast episodes to be had on how these platforms play in and what it all looks like online, but we are already coming up to time, so I want to switch gears and just finish off with a little pop quiz. I'd like you to define safe space for me in just one to two sentences. How would you explain it to a friend who doesn't really understand the concept?

Erin: [00:33:56] So, probably my mom? [Laughs]

Elizabeth: [00:33:59] Great! Yes.

Erin: [00:34:01] Safe space is a physical, or online, or whatever space that a marginalized or vulnerable community can feel safe from oppression, harassment, and use it as a way to create community or to organize politically in order to achieve a larger goal.

Elizabeth: [00:34:28] That's perfect, excellent work. Thank you so much. This was wonderful.

Erin: [00:34:36] Thank you, this is great! I had a great time.

Elizabeth: [00:34:41] All right, I hope you enjoyed that episode on safe spaces. If you'd like to learn more about the concept, or any of the other concepts and theories we talked about today, you can check the show notes or head over to where you can find transcripts that have been annotated in both French and English.

[00:34:57] This special season on media and digital literacy is funded in part through a Connection Grant from the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council of Canada and the Digital Citizen Initiative.

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